"Storz" (storzbach)
01/06/2014 at 12:59 • Filed to: None
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"Storz" (storzbach)
01/06/2014 at 12:59 • Filed to: None | 1
| 34 |
I am a die hard manual transmission fan, most of the vehicles I've owned have had three pedals and those that didn't were often not available with a manual trans anyways.
That said I realize that something better may be out there, and am wondering what Oppo's opinions on the various flappy paddle gear boxes are?
I've driven a 996 PDK car, though it was several years ago, I mostly remember a poor interface but lightening fast gear changes. Also driven an A3 TDI which also had very fast gear changes. Cars like the Mitsu RalliArt seem interesting because you have the choice of using the paddles or a properly aligned (forward for down, backward for up) gear lever as well.
In my opinion a proper flappy paddle steering wheel should have upshifts on the right (pulling towards you) and downshifts on the left (pulling towards you). What non-exotic cars have this?
On a more subjective matter, does not having a clutch/gear shifter take away from the driving experience? Does having a computer rev-match remove you from the more visceral nature of driving?
Thoughts...
Sinanigans
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:05 |
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I know that they are faster and safer (no missed shifts). But unless I'm racing competitively, I just don't see the need for it in my own life. I thoroughly enjoy rowing my own gears with a clutch pedal.
Saracen
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:06 |
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I've driven several PDK porsches (after Porsche put actual paddles on the column), E92 M3 DCT, S4 DSG, A3 DSG.
They are very impressive, and work very well...but it just ain't the same as having a clutch pedal. I do feel it detracts from the driving experience.
Most dual clutch equipped cars these days (including all the aforementioned cars I drove) have separate paddles for upshifting and downshifting...none of this "pull to upshift, push to downshift" stuff.
automatic rev matching is of course a necessity for dual clutch gearboxes, but I want it kept the hell away from any car I buy with a proper manual gearbox. I'm perfectly capable of rev matching with my own feet, tyvm.
Agrajag
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:08 |
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As long as the driver can choose which gear they want to be in I'm fine with either.
feather-throttle-not-hair
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:09 |
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Rev matching is so much fun.
I'll take a DSG over a traditional automatic. But rev matching, it's fun.
Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:10 |
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My SHO has paddle's, but... it's a pull for gear up and a push for gear down. This works, but I prefer letting the automatic handle the shifting. Perhaps if I take it to autocross the paddle's will come in handy.
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Storz
> Saracen
01/06/2014 at 13:11 |
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The PDK I drove must have been an older version, I remember it having buttons for your thumbs...
SkarTisu
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:12 |
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The VW DSG flappy paddles have the orientation you described. Their orientation on the PRND lever is "backwards" though. I enjoy mine. I get to do my Sebatien Ogier impersonation whenever I want, but put it back in automatic when I'm not in time attack mode.
Tom McParland
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:13 |
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It really depends on the gearbox...I've driven a few VW's with the DSG and while the shifts were quick and smooth, it just felt like I was pushing a button so not much involvement. However, the paddle shifters on the Ferrari F430 Scuderia felt like you actually had to pull a paddle and the shifts in that car were a bit violent (in a good way).
Z_Stig
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:15 |
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On the the 996, it wasn't PDK. They called it Tiptronic and it was a normal automatic with manual controls.
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Z_Stig
> Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
01/06/2014 at 13:17 |
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Weird.... I see why you let it shift itself.
Does the SHO allow you to have full control over the trans? Or will it shift up if it hits redline?
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Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
> Z_Stig
01/06/2014 at 13:20 |
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Yeah, it isn't the greatest system and most article's I've read people prefer to let it row its own gears, which it actually does very well (even at the drag strip). I am very pleased with Ford's 6F55.
One exception where people shift their own gears is autocross.
It will bounce off the rev limiter and according to an article I just found it will also rev-match downshifts.
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Storz
> Z_Stig
01/06/2014 at 13:22 |
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Good to know
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Storz
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:24 |
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I guess the 996 I drove was a tiptronic, not a PDK. My mistake.
RaymondStantz
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:30 |
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I think a lot of people, including folks on this site, confuse sport automatics with gear selection with DCTs. Sure, ZF 8 speeds are brilliant transmissions and are the pinnacle of what a torque converter can do, but DCTs are almost violently accurate.
Don't get me wrong, it's not the same feel as your usual manual transmission, and doesn't provide the same level of traditional engagement. However, they are indeed fun and extremely quick. I can't get over the burble between shifts on my GTI with DSG. It's the folks who correlate their own masculinity, or position as an enthusiast through their transmission that annoy me greatly.
They're not bad, just different. Appreciate both for what they are.
J. Walter Weatherman
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:31 |
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I've driven a BMW with the SMG, a VW with the DSG and a Porsche with the PDK. The PDK and DSG are both brilliant transmissions. I still prefer three pedals, but if I am getting an automatic, I would want it to be one of those. Shifts are instantaneous and crisp, and you don't have any of that mushy feel you get with a slush box - you can feel the connection between the engine and the wheels.
I thought the SMG was simply atrocious for daily driving though. It is slow and jerky and was incredibly distracting. The car that I was driving was an E46 M3, and I honestly thought the car was ruined by that transmission.
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Saracen
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:32 |
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The 996 and 997.1 had Tiptronic.
The 997.2 introduced PDK...for the first year PDK was actuated only with buttons on the steering wheel. Due to customer demand, paddles were offered on the 2010- cars, and as a retrofit on the 2009 cars.
Tentacle, Dutchman, drives French
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:43 |
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What is it that driving offers you? If you're chasing lap times, a modern semi-auto will bring you more than rowing your own. It doesn't really matter what's behind the paddles, be it a double clutch affair or a robotic sequential box like on the Aventador, LF-A or Agera.
Look at archery. If you want accuracy, you get a compound recurve bow. Damaging your previously shot arrows isn't uncommon because clustering is sooo tight. Then why is it that a lot of archers prefer the regular bow?
Shooting a bow and arrow is a case of "easy to do, but hard to do right". There is basic satisfaction to be had from a good shot.
Along the same line of thinking, there is the low grade instant award from rowing your own. Manual shifting is easy, nailing that perfect heel-and-toe isn't. A hard launch with just the right amount of clutch slip, right at the optimal revs, that's difficult in a manual car without TC. Enabling launch control isn't hard at all. There is no reward getting that right.
That said, I guess that the rewarding bits simply shift about a bit, and you can get a feel-good grin from driving the perfect line, instead of a brief sense of elation for getting that side-flip blip-and-downshift under threshold braking just right.
I guess that if you're in it for the mechanical do-it-yourself way of driving then the three-pedal dance is the most rewarding one. Having electronics and servos do all this for you will still be fun, but not as rewarding as knowing that it was your own skill that pulled it off.
Stupidru
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:44 |
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Can anybody with a VW DSG help me out here? I test-drove a VW TDI wagon with DSG and it felt slow and sluggish. Upshifting took a full "one-one-thousand, two-one-thousand" whereas downshifting was prompt.
The temperatures outside were in the teens and the diesel hadn't allowed the car to warm up enough in the duration of my test drive... is the DSG much faster and sportier when properly warmed up? Please tell me so.
tromoly
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:52 |
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Paddles -> Single-Seater race cars post-1990, especially if using an engine/transmission from a motorcycle ala FSAE.
Stick -> Vintage racing cars pre-1990, any road vehicle.
Basically, I'm not a fan of paddles on road vehicles.
PushToStart
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 13:56 |
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I think they have their place, but there's no way it can replace a traditional manual with clutch. Paddles (in my opinion) only serve their purpose on the track. They're supposed to be very quick and precise, which is what you want when you're racing or trying to set a quick time. What I don't like about paddles is that they're being put on the most random cars. My friends honda fit has paddles and she definitely is not taking that to the track and didn't even know what they were until I explained to her what it is. It just seems like car makers these days are just throwing them on regular, everyday cars with auto transmissions just to say "oh look this car has paddles! Sporty, right?" When in reality they don't work very well, the typical buyer of that car probably won't use them, and they most likely won't work as they should.
kol-klink
> Stupidru
01/06/2014 at 14:36 |
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they do shift faster when warm.
also did you thrash it? Around town the dsg shifts slower to smooth things out. Put it in S and floor it from a standstill, you'll be thorough 3 gears going extra legal speeds before you know it, never knew diesels could be so much fun.
Textured Soy Protein
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 14:41 |
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I have a BMW 135is DCT. The transmission was one of the main reasons I bought the car. My 3 cars before this were all stick shift. I enjoyed shifting for myself and took satisfaction in perfect heel-toe downshifts while putzing around town.
But the thing is, I work a lot. I drive around town commuting to work, doing errands, going out to dinner, whatever. Not all of this driving is exciting, and sometimes shifting all the time gets tiring.
I checked out several cars with torque converter automatics with paddle shifters. They all have some degree of lag between your input and when they actually shift. Some, but not all of them, while in D, will let you temporarily select a gear with the paddles and hold that gear before taking back over. None of them were to the point where I would buy one in a performance car.
A few years ago, I looked at some DSG-equipped VW cars: MkV GTI, MkV R32, and A3 3.2 V6. The transmissions were great, they shift lightning fast, they let you click a manual gear selection even in Drive (they'll revert to Drive after a while), and generally don't get in the way like a torque converter automatic does. But the cars themselves were just a bit too boring. There wasn't quite enough excitement in the rest of the driving experience. Aside from the exhaust noise on the R32, they lacked drama.
My 135is on the other hand, feels special in a way the VWs I tried don't. It has a lot more power, you can step the back end out if you get on the gas, it's got a loud exhaust that makes all kinds of crazy noises in response to the engine rev-matching shifts, you can hear the BOV chirping F&F style, and yeah it's pretty damn quick. It has 4 different automatic shift modes and except for the least aggressive, the other 3 can be exciting even if the car's doing the shifting.
So no, there's no clutch & shifter. And if you want those things, a DCT isn't going to be a substitute. But the right car with the right transmission can still be fun, even if you don't get to do the shifting work yourself.
(As for VW/Audi, I imagine that if I tried an Audi 3.0T + DSG car it would be more to my liking than the other VW products I tried. But the S4 was a good bit more than my 135is was. I ended up getting an old Grand Cherokee to drive in Wisconsin winter instead of my 135is. While the S4 is a much better winter car than the 135is, to me it's almost too nice to drive around in all this snow, slush, ice, salt, sand, cheese brine , and other assorted crap.)
It's a "Porch-uh"
> J. Walter Weatherman
01/06/2014 at 14:49 |
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I had a similar experience with an E60 M5 when I was looking to buy one. The computer needs to adjust based off what you're doing with the car. Instead, you have to adjust by clicking through the five different shift settings.
I was cruising around town just fine in the softer settings, then tagged the throttle getting on the freeway and I got sick from being pitched forward and back as I shifted up. So every time I need to jam on the throttle I better remember to adjust shift the shift setting? Don't really have time for that.
911e46z06
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 14:49 |
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My e46 M3 got dat. The SMG gets a lot of hate, but I kinda love it. I've been using the car for a DD, and the flappy paddles are the perfect compromise between manual and automatic. You get the same level of control, but it isn't a pain in the ass in traffic or in the parking lot.
That said, when it's time to hoon, only a true manual will do.
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J. Walter Weatherman
> Stupidru
01/06/2014 at 14:54 |
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Sounds to me like something was wrong with the car you were driving. My wife has a GTI with the DSG and upshifts are instantaneous, no matter the temperature.
William Byrd
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 15:33 |
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I have used them in a Gallardo Superleggera and a 458 Italia (picture of pictures of me driving them below.
They were fine, amazingly quick, but not nearly as satisfying as shifting your own gears. If I'm buying a car that expensive its partially for the experience and IMO the 3rd pedal adds to that experience.
GRawesome
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 17:09 |
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I'm OK with them as long as they are an option and you can still drive it the old fashioned manual way. Unfortunately that is becoming more and more rare.
Icemanmaybeirunoutofthetalents
> Storz
01/06/2014 at 17:31 |
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I think paddle shifters are a great compromise if you want to shift and the other person with whom you share the care doesn't. That way, the other person can leave it in auto and you can shift using the paddles. For one-car households this might be a great way to get best of both worlds.
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Storz
> Textured Soy Protein
01/07/2014 at 07:50 |
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Awesome and very informative post, exactly what I was looking for! I need to go check out a DCT BMW.
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Stupidru
> kol-klink
01/07/2014 at 09:12 |
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I may have to go back for another test drive in the spring. I was not very impressed with the DSG but it looks like I just had a bad experience. I did thrash it on the test drive and even then I was not impressed with the speed of the diesel. Again, looks like I need to go back in spring
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Stupidru
> J. Walter Weatherman
01/07/2014 at 09:14 |
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I'm still hoping to get a 6-speed VW, but the salesman handed me the keys to a DSG just because that was the only transmission in the TDIs they had on the lot. Looks like I need to go back in spring and test drive another just to be sure that DSGs aren't trash
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Textured Soy Protein
> Storz
01/07/2014 at 09:19 |
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I wouldn't necessarily say the BMW DCT in and of itself is particularly better than the VW DSG, just that a more powerful car with DCT is more entertaining, and the DSG VWs I've driven were all in the 200-250 hp range. Whereas BMWs available with DCT are:
2011-2013 135i - 300hp
2013 135is - 320 hp
2011-2013 335is - 320 hp
2008-2013 M3 - 414 hp
2006-2014 M5 - 500-560 hp
2006-2014 M6 - 500-560 hp
I have a feeling that DSG VW/Audi products with similar power levels would in theory be just as entertaining, but I haven't driven one.
yamanote
> It's a "Porch-uh"
01/07/2014 at 19:45 |
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Program the M-drive to your liking (S6/P500S etc.), then when you want full attack mode you can just hit the little M button on the wheel.
JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
> Storz
01/17/2014 at 18:31 |
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Meh. I acknowledge their speed but find them boring. I think I'd prefer a good old clutch pedal on the track, even.